Mark Driscoll on 1 Peter 3:21 (and specifically baptism)
Y'all know that I respect Pastor Mark Driscoll quite a bit. However, theologically we don't agree on some things. The video link above is a good example (It's about 4 minutes long). In it he states that baptism doesn't save someone. Of course, as a Lutheran I disagree. I post it for two reasons: 1. I'd like people to see the passage that he is teaching on and ask if what he is saying can really be an accurate reading of the passage in question. 2. If any of you have questions about the biblical teaching on baptism, I'd like to start a discussion here in the comments section.
Y'all know that I respect Pastor Mark Driscoll quite a bit. However, theologically we don't agree on some things. The video link above is a good example (It's about 4 minutes long). In it he states that baptism doesn't save someone. Of course, as a Lutheran I disagree. I post it for two reasons: 1. I'd like people to see the passage that he is teaching on and ask if what he is saying can really be an accurate reading of the passage in question. 2. If any of you have questions about the biblical teaching on baptism, I'd like to start a discussion here in the comments section.
5 comments:
Commenting on #1...
I'm a little concerned that something was missed before this video to explain the verses prior to 1 Peter 3:21. In this passage Driscoll passed right over "...which corresponds to this...", which refers to the preceding text (with emphasis first on the work of the Redeemer to redeem - not first on the redeemed to find the Redeemer):
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.Now, then, the Word continues with:
Baptism, which corresponds to this,... But Driscoll makes no mention of this context.
But still Driscoll says...
"Baptism is two things. It is a historical fact accompanied by a personal faith."Personal faith? From what part of a person does this faith arise? If you can rightly claim (Romans 10:17) that faith comes by the Word of God, the promise made into flesh as Christ our Lord (John 1:14), then surely baptism in the Word of God is a means of delivering faith.
"You're not saved through baptism, you're saved through Christ and baptism is a means of demonstrating faith in Christ."For Driscoll stating in this video that claiming salvation through baptism is adding a work to the finished work of Christ, it seems the "demonstration" in the quote above is a more blatant example of added work. And perhaps both are - unless baptism is not our work, but instead a means of delivering faith through the coupled Word of God's promise in Christ.
"It is not the getting wet that saves you, it's the faith in Christ that unites you with God."The quote above, I think, is the thesis of this message. However, the other material is often tangent to both this thesis and the passage. See also Ephesians 2:8-9.
"I was baptized in the Catholic church as a baby. Some Catholics are Christians. I wasn't. I didn't really think about Jesus much 'til I was 19 years of age reading the Bible in college. Up until that point if you'd have said, "Do you think you'll go to heaven when you die," I'd have said yes. I was baptized and I'm a good person. I would have said nothing about Jesus. Nothing about Jesus."I wonder what the testimony and message would have been if, like Noah, Driscoll's immersion in God's promise through his Word remained until the day of his salvation. That is, that instead of saying "I would have said nothing about Jesus" he could say "I have been taught daily of the grace of God's promise through Jesus Christ and it is by the God-given faith in Christ that I have the assured hope of salvation."
Before posting my OPINION on the topic, I would like to say I do not intend to offend anyone. I feel strongly for some of my opinions and would like it if someone felt I was treading dangerously on any matter to say so. I am comfortable discussing what I feel are non-essentials.
I wish I could make my words sound as elegant as yours were Ben. When I look at Baptism, mind you I am not as educated as I should be in utilizing scriptures like I would like to, I look at baptism as a work. It is not the great one work, you cannot be baptized and expect that water on your head to save your soul. It is Christ who gives the great baptism of blood. It is Christ that lived, died and resurrected. It is Christ that commands us, and gives us salvation. I don't believe one needs to be baptized to be saved, nor one to be saved by baptism. Baptism is the showing of your belief, the work. It is with confidence you take the water to your head for God's hand to be laid upon you.
Some people... Erick. As I understand it believe you may be baptized, and through that baptism are now saved but can lose your salvation in the future. My question is in who's eyes are we looking through? Does God not say once he chooses someone they cannot be taken from him? I believe in God's eyes there is only what 'is', not what was. I cannot see God giving someone salvation, then later reevaluating that person and taking it back.
There are illusions of faith, whether through works or words. Someone can appear to be something they are not, but to God what are they? They are fraud. There is only clean and unclean, only in our eyes are there the 'not yet clean'.
If I wanted to show God my faith through works, I would be baptized, I would tithe, I would read his Word, I would pray, I would follow His commandments. But these are all works, signs, that show someone is a believing, and improving Christian. But no one of these works is a key for His gate. These are our fruits.
If I bore a child and wanted him to be saved, I would be like all righteous fathers... but to think I can take my child into a holy bath tub and save him myself feels fraudulent. I feel that is a work, showing YOUR faith in the Lord. WE ourselves cannot save our children, it is Christ. I believe instead of Baptizing infants and or newborns I would pray for their salvation, not be assured of their salvation in the tub. If you believe salvation can be taken from someone, that means God gave it, then took it away. I think it would be better to say it is AVAILABLE to everyone, even to the person believed to have 'lost' it, but in the eyes of the Lord, knowing past, present and future, there is only saved, and unsaved.
Chris, your comments are very welcome. I would ask rather then to try and make it all make sense first, read these passages of scripture: Romans 6:1-11, 1 Peter 3:21, Colossians 2. I can bring you many more, but what I'll try and do is e-mail them to you instead.
We don't put faith in our reason, but the word of God. There are answers to the problems you bring up, but not enough space to address them here.
I'll try and send you that e-mail now. :)
Yes my mind is in a blender and my mouth has even less words for my thoughts... makes it a bit difficult to explain exactly what my ideas are. I will watch for the email, thanks!
I think preaching like this is why I had difficulty when I was young reading my Bible. Basically, he said, "What it says is not really what it means." That's pretty much why I became discouraged when reading my Bible in high school. I would feel I had understood some truth, and then when the Word was preached I would discover I had misunderstood, that the Word was not to be taken literally. I also think this is a reason why some Christians have a hard time when defending their faith. It is much easier to defend Biblical truths when you can take the Word literally.
I was taken aback when he stated that baptism of infants was paganism. I had Baptist friends in high school who held this belief and at the same time insisted I wasn't saved because I hadn't been baptized as an adult. They seemed to believe the only way to make a confession of faith and be saved was through baptism.
Keep teaching on this issue Erick. I have much to learn.
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